Origins – How Not To Drown
ThickSkin’s Theatre Blog, 5 January 2023
NB
My name is Neil, I am the artistic director of ThickSkin and I am the director of the play How Not To Drown. We’re here to talk about the origins of show.
DK
I am Dritan, I am the guy who the story is about, I’m an actor, sometimes director, and I helped Nicola put the story down from my head.
NM
And I’m Nicola, I’m a playwright and dramaturg. And I helped Dritan to get his story out of his head and make the script.
NB
I suppose it’s interesting to talk about how we all came to be creating this together, because it had various different stages. I met you, Dritan, when you were 18 and you were in a Frantic Assembly Ignition performance that I was directing. And we only knew a little bit of your story and how you came to be in that room with us. When you met Nicola, that was when the full story started to come out. So, do you want to just give us a bit of an idea about what it was like to begin that process?
DK
Yeah. Basically, when I was working with Frantic Assembly. Scott Graham had a connection with Nicola. He said, you should meet this woman because she’ll help you with the story. Initially, I was meant to meet Nicola and do a workshop and then that was it, we hit it off. I just really liked how Nicola was very fast at getting the story out of my head, faster than I assumed or I wanted to tell. And then I thought, wow, this is the person, this is the woman I would want to work with. And for me, that was like the start, the beginning of everything.
NM
Yeah, that’s when we met. I think it’s interesting to note that we’ve all worked with Frantic Assembly, so Frantic is kind of the common denominator here. I’ve previously written and you’ve both directed and performed with Frantic Assembly. So, I met Scott for dinner in Edinburgh, I think it was 2016, and we were talking about various projects in which I’d been involved with other people who had been through quite traumatic experiences and how I had been working on making those into plays with them, co-writing with them. And Scott suggested that I come down to London and we set you up. He said there’s this young guy who has a story to tell. He wants to make it into a piece of physical theatre, but he can only tell the funny bits. So, the only bits that he can tell of his own life story are the jokes. And that’s proven problematic because then he doesn’t actually have a full story. So, Frantic Assembly paid for me to come down to London and give a workshop to the current team of young artists they were working with, who were all men. And at that point, you said, well, you’re here for me, aren’t you, so we may as well tell my story. So, I just did what I normally do. And within an hour, he had about 18 to 20 different scenes, and, as he said, things that he hadn’t previously told anyone. And then from that point onwards, you were meant to write your own play. And I said, I’ll be in touch with you if you need me. And then about a year later, you came back and said, I don’t think I can do this by myself, and would you be willing to work with me? And so, we did. And it took maybe two full years of working with each other, on and off. Fortunately, I am part time attached to the University of Edinburgh, and they paid for quite a lot of our work together.
And then Dritan was always incredibly sure that the person that he wanted to work with and the company that he wanted to work with was ThickSkin to realize the production fully as a piece of physical theatre. He really trusted you, Neil, and Laura, the producer of the company. So, he really wanted to make it with you guys. We arranged again through the University of Edinburgh to bring you up to Edinburgh, hired some actors in, and then that was the beginning of us all coming together and seeing whether we all thought it could work as a piece of physical theatre, which is the point at which the whole thing fused.
NB
I remember that very clearly, that workshop at the university with a lovely bunch of actors, including Dan Cahill who ended up in the show. And we were just testing at that point. It felt like lovely, free time to discover what was needed, whether it needed one voice or whether it needed multiple voices, and how we make all the other characters appear who you meet along your journey.
Let’s go back a bit and just say, for people who haven’t seen the show and don’t know anything about it, what is the story in a nutshell for you, Dritan? How do you describe it? What do you go through in those 90 minutes?
DK
I think the story shows the traumatic experience of someone as young as me coming to the UK at eleven years old. It shows the story and the trauma, the habits of this little kid, and it’s shown in a way that I’m not a victim child, if that makes sense. It shows that the comedy that Nicola was talking about was a coping mechanism, which I think makes the story less heavy to watch and easier to connect with, but I think it’s a survival thing. It’s finding yourself, finding your identity somewhere where you don’t speak the language, you don’t know anyone, you don’t even know what foster care is, and you end up spending most of your childhood in someone else’s house.
NB
We always describe it as a story of two journeys. There is the physical journey to the UK, and then there’s another different emotional journey that takes you through the care system. And then, at the end, it’s about what home means to you. When you go through a journey and an experience like that, does it erode parts of you that means you can never fully find something that truly feels like home?
We made a theatre production out of your story, so why live theatre? What is it about live theatre that works for this kind of storytelling? Why not a film? It would make a good film but what was it about the theatre that attracted you?
DK
For me, the moment I started working with you, Neil, I thought that was the best way to express what I felt. Straight away, I was like, I feel at home here. This is the style. Because Albanians are very physical. They talk with their hands and it’s all in the body. So, when we have a conversation, it’s not just the words. So for us, visually and physically, it’s an important way to tell the story and for me, I just felt that was the best way to demonstrate what I mean and who I am rather than someone else do it for me.
NB
Nicola, I’m wondering how you chose which moments from all of Dritan’s interview audio recordings would go into the play?
NM
When I work with people who carry trauma, I see that trauma is really carried in your body. So physical theatre is a really amazing medium to tell stories which are about traumatic experience because we know from that very popular book, The Body Keeps Score, for example, that trauma is a really physical thing. It’s how we experience it.
What you’ve been able to do in the way that you’re staging it Neil, and the way that we’ve kind of worked with ‘Chorus’ is a sense of physicalisation of Dritan’s traumatic experience.
In terms of how we drew that story out, there are many more hours of us talking to each other that I’ve recorded because truth likes to talk. And eventually, once I got him talking, I was like, is he ever going to regret that? But he still hasn’t stopped speaking. There was quite a big editing job, but as we all know, the script was originally much longer. We’ve got it down to about an hour and 20 minutes now, but it was much, much longer than that in the first version.
Why theatre? I think, just back to that power, the power of the medium of live performance. It’s my passion. I’m thoroughly committed to it because I believe in the liveness of it that that has the power to affect people in the moment and change people’s minds. But it is a physical thing. There’s something that’s happening in the body of the audience. Not just their minds and their emotions, but also their physical bodies when they watch a piece of physical theatre that really helps them understand another human being’s experience on a whole different level. And you can’t get that in film. Film is very much a sit back watch, let us tell you. Whereas with theatre you participate you as an audience member, you’re involved, you have to bring something to this party.
NB
And I think back in the Edinburgh workshop, when we were talking about what the presentation style might be, and we were talking about whether the whole thing could be set on some sort of raft. And just that little spark of an idea kind of carried us through, really, didn’t it? And then speaking to Becky Minto, the designer, and what we have now is a sort of square wooden platform that tilts quite dramatically towards the audience and we wanted it to just be kind of floating in blackness. And it was only really at the end after making the show, and I looked back on it and realised that Dritan, you don’t actually leave the stage at all. You get on at the beginning and you get off at the end, and everybody else gets on and off at various points, but I hadn’t quite realised when we were making it. That was a thing that is now really important to how I view the show. And that the precariousness of that raft, even though it’s very safe and we make physical theatre, so we like putting people into sort of physical positions where they find new opportunities to be creative. And the metaphor of the precariousness of the situation felt completely right and just this very striking image as well, isn’t it?
DK
Absolutely. It also adds to the performance, I think, us as actors on top of that stage, knowing the risk that we could fall off. And I think for us as actors, it helped us keep that energy up, because at any moment, some of the stuff we did in the dark, you could literally, if you don’t count it the right way, if you missed the beat, you went off the edge. But luckily for us, none of us fell off, not so far.
NM
It’s also the physical effort, though, watching you guys. There’s a huge physical effort because of that energy. And watching you in rehearsal and watching you in performance again, it’s that physicalisation of the mental, emotional and physical energy that you personally had to harness to get through the experience that you’ve lived through. Again with Neil and Becky’s very clever concept there. We’re seeing that. We’re kind of having to bear witness to that throughout the performance.
NB
And that is that physical response, isn’t it? If you’re an audience member watching something, like feeling slightly nervous about what you’re watching as well. A lot of people commented on that. They were quite nervous about those five people, especially when they’re all on there and they’re moving quite quickly. But I think that kind of keeps you active, doesn’t it? And also, it’s not a story that you can just sit back and let it kind of happen to you. It’s something that you’ve really got to follow. It gets, if anything, more relentless as it gets through to the end parts of the care journey.
I suppose there’s a question now about what do we want an audience to come out thinking or feeling? Is there something that you want them to come away with?
DK
For me, it just feels like the audience should understand, because they should understand that people have different lives and we all have shit going on in our lives. How do we go through these things? And in the play, I think the way we put it together, there’s no victimisation. It just was this little boy. This could be anyone from any country, anywhere in the world. I remember the first night we did it and this man came up to me, this old English man, he’s like, oh, hi, thank you so much. And he was crying. And I was like, how can he relate to my story? He’s an English guy in England and he says, I grew up in France and I was an English kid in France and I was getting bullied for being English. He related very well to it. And for me, that is such a positive thing to see, because it’s not just a refugee story, it’s not a little kid from Albania story. I think it’s a worldwide story. There’s no nationality in the story.
NB
And I think that’s what I want people to take away, the reality, the truth of the story, and I think there’s something about being just moved by it. Because I feel like people will go through a range of emotions and a range of thoughts throughout it. To come out of a theatre and not know where to start the conversation is probably a good thing. To process something and be like, wow, what do I feel about that? How do I feel about that journey and what that kid went through? And also, what do I feel about the visceral experience that I’ve just been through for 90 minutes? In that theatre with those people and probably with a lot of young people because our work attracts a young audience.
NM
I think for me there are two things. The first is empathy because for me, that’s what theatre is mostly for. It’s a great big empathy machine. And again, going back to this notion of what physical theatre does, it puts you through an experience as an audience member, the sense of being able to feel something that another person feels and understand something in a wholly different way. Not just intellectually, but I really hope people get to understand the experience of being a small child stuck in a boat and sent to safety. Because I think we lack in our nations at the moment a huge amount of empathy for people in that situation and why families would choose to do that and knowing the risk to their children of taking that action. And it’s also about systems. There’s a lot for me in the script about systems how the immigration system works, how the care system works and how we’re all just being acted on all the time by systems. But systems are people, so actually we create the systems and we can also change them. So for me, there’s a provocation in it about systems. And interestingly, one of the emotions that I saw in the audience afterwards when we did the run in Edinburgh was anger. There’s a lot of anger from people. People who didn’t expect to be angry about the way in which Dritan was treated and the systems that were forcing him to leave, the systems that took him across Europe the systems that met him when he arrived as a small child in the UK. And then the system that supposed to look after him until he reached an adult age. Lots of people were very angry after they saw it that this happens in our country and in our continent. And I think anger is a very healthy emotion.
NB
Yeah, I wonder, talking about the system, the care system, and that half of the play how unique is your experience in that part of the journey? Your insight into that? I just wonder how many other people have similar stories to Dritan.
NM
I’ve worked a lot within the care system in different ways. I’ve just stopped recently being a foster carer myself. I think the best summation of it is from the charity ‘Who Cares’ that I’ve recently been engaged with in a different way and several of their workers have seen the show multiple times. And they take other care experienced young people to see this show because they say this is the best kind of dramatic realisation of the care system they’ve ever seen. So, I think that that sort of says everything that I think we would want it to say. I think Dritan’s experience is not unique at all. What he goes through in the play – loads of young people have been in that system, loads of care experience people identify with it. And I think the two of you may remember our post show discussion at The Tron when there was a bunch of care experienced young people who came and how they really engaged with Dritan. This one young guy in particular, he was just like, that’s my life. That’s my life. And that’s really validating, I would say, for a lot of care experienced people, because they get to see, and again, as Dritan says, not a superhero and not a victim, just an ordinary young guy going through this very difficult experience and this really dehumanising system that we’ve constructed within the UK to deal with the most vulnerable of our young people.
DK
Everyone is entitled to their version of the story. And to some people, giving someone a home, a physical home where they’re not out in the rain, that to them is everything. It all depends on their experience and what they have gone through. Just because you have a house doesn’t mean you have a home. That doesn’t mean you have love. Obviously, not every foster career can offer that to a child. But at the same time, they can do more to help those kids, because just a home is not enough for a child. And I don’t think anyone with any heart would want a kid to have just food and shelter.
Now in the media we hear about refugees getting free hotels. It’s a very cold way of looking at it. And the Government right now, I think they are deflecting attention away from their failures by magnifying migrant issues. The UK 1% of the global total of refugees around the world, which is tiny compared to the wealth of the country. That’s the reality. It’s propaganda that makes people think that we have to kick these refugees out.
NB
This brings us on to a meaty part of the conversation. Because what I think is interesting to talk about is how the political landscape has shifted and changed since you were eleven. What was going on at the time in the town where you lived with your family and how that led to you not being safe there and needing to be sent to a different place to find safety. Compared to what that’s like now? And also, since we made this play in 2019, it feels much more prominent now because of news coverage and the Government rhetoric around Albanian migrants. It’s been amplified recently and I believe that the first thing that the Government right now is doing is found the next victim to blame.
DK
If you think about it properly, right now they’re saying Albanians are the highest minority in prison in the UK. And it’s taken out of taken out of context. I have famous friends who are referred to as British Albanians because they’re positive and they’re making this country look good. But we’re only described as British Albanians when we are doing something positive. And at the moment, given the news coverage we’re all just described as Albanians. Even if we’re British, even if, like me, they’ve lived here for 20 years, or were born here. I think a lot of British people will know that this is bollocks, but some believe it, unfortunately. Some buy into the idea that all Albanians are bad.
NM
I think I’m interested in this story in the context of Ukraine, given what’s happening in Ukraine and the number of Ukrainian refugees who have come here. And I think it’s very interesting that we’re just reaching day 300 of the second wave of Russia’s war on Ukraine. So, we’ve had less than a year of receiving Ukrainian refugees here, and you already are beginning to see the British media turn against Ukrainian refugees. So it was all fine at the beginning. And I think part of the problem is that we would like to believe within the United Kingdom that we are incredibly generous and we’re incredibly civilized. There’s that wonderful wave of emotion of us feeling good about ourselves. When we receive anyone who is in danger, yes, come to us. We’ll give you shelter, but as soon as you cost us anything, then we’d quite like you to leave, please.
I’m wondering some of the reception from some of the kind of press when we first did the show, I wouldn’t say it was hostile, but wasn’t welcoming. I fully expect that will be amplified this time. I do expect there will be some hostility towards this show, particularly opening in London, and I don’t really care. I have to be really honest, because I don’t feel that the criticism is valid. And I think it comes from that very emotionally, psychologically immature place that our national psyche has. When you help someone, the concept of besa in Albania is it costs you something. So, if helping someone cost you nothing, it’s not really help. I think there’s a notion of self-sacrifice and aid and assistance. Otherwise, it’s kind of not really worth it at all.
NB
I think in the end, there’s something about ‘help’ being a business transaction, which features in the play quite a bit. Without giving too much away, you talk a lot about it. It’s just a business transaction to these people and actually what you want is something way more than that. So I think people from Ukraine to the UK, that was a business transaction as well. There was money involved and that changes the way people look at how they will take people into their homes or care for people, but then probably don’t think about the longer-term effects of that if it’s just a business transaction at some point.
DK
I think this play says, look at yourself in the mirror. Don’t bullshit. What would you do if you had to run for your life? I think you would. I definitely think you would.
NB
And you asked that question yourself in the play, on stage to the audience. What would you do? And I really love that. You always remind us how old you are at certain points in it. Like something extreme has happened. And you’re like, I was six years old, I was nine years old. So, you’re constantly reminding an audience to stop and think about what that situation is, but also what you would do if you were in that situation.
DK
I’m just looking at my nephews right now and my nieces. What if they were going through what I went through? I would do anything to never see them go through that. And I think anyone would. If you really experienced that, if you really put yourself in that position, you would never do it. I would never have done it knowing what I know now. I would never come to this country. I grew up here. I love it here. It gave me safety. It gave me everything that I have right now. But at the same time, I would never do it. It’s not about England. It’s about the risk and the stuff. The baggage that came with doing it was not calculated, was not thought about. You gamble everything for safety, but you lose a lot more.
NB
That’s why this play is so important as well. Because you’re in a position and have had the opportunity to present this story in a way that will really resonate to people. And if that gives voice to the people who don’t get a chance to tell their story, then that’s the power of the piece at the end. I think it’s very important that it is a story told by someone who has lived it, rather than an imagined story told through the perspective of people who’ve never had to live it. This play is in your own words, with some editing, but it is in your own words. There is a danger that you glamorise the situation, if you over theatricalise it. And I suppose as the director, that was one of the fears going into it. How do we not make it flashy, if that’s the right word? And I don’t think we did because the writing keeps it rooted. And I think having you as the person on stage telling that story gives it the authenticity that it needs.
NM
I have a question for you, Neil. Why this show? Why was this the one that you guys decided to come back with? And what do you think it’s given you as a company?
NB
The thing that first attracted me to it was the fact that it was Dritan. He wouldn’t take no for an answer and I remember saying to you, all right, I will come and I will do a workshop. I’ll run that workshop for you and I’ll put some stuff together and then we can decide. And it was only in that workshop after a couple of days of having those actors say those lines and having you there. And I’m not sure you were even saying very much at that point. I think you were observing, watching. I just remember there was something that clicked in my brain and went, this is really exciting and can be something really special if we do the right thing with it. And I felt like the team around it, especially Nicola, like the way that you approach the writing, drawing out of fine elements of something, but also with just a brilliant theatrical brain and with the knowledge that you want to make something that people will want to see and a story that needs to be told. So I think that was the turning point for me.
NM
What are you most looking forward to as a director? Because you now get to revisit, and I know you’ve done this multiple times with other shows, but you get to revisit this one.
So what are you most excited about and what you are you feeling challenged by as you go back into the rehearsal room?
NB
I’m excited about having that bunch of people in a room again because there’s an infectious energy between all of them. We’ve got four performers who have done the show before and one brand new, which I think is a really good thing. I want to be able to reimagine some moments and rethink some of what we made in the first instance. I want to revisit some of the intention behind the scenes and how we want audiences to fee. And I can’t wait play on that set again.
DK
Absolutely. That set is going to kill us. But, yeah, we are a bit older than we were.
NB
I had one more question which is, what’s your favourite scene in the play? Or what’s your favourite line in the play?
DK
‘Forward, forward, forward or down or nothing’ are my favourite words because I’m not a superhero and I’m not a victim.
Book tickets for How Not To Drown, touring 26 Jan to 1 April 2023.
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